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Post by Paranoid Android on Sept 18, 2004 20:43:16 GMT -5
The whole Horatio/Calleigh movement baffles me. What is it about these two that makes people believe they're attracted to each other? Is it the fact that they never flirt? That he's in love with another woman? That she's never seen him as anything other than a mentor figure? That they rarely have any scenes together? Boredom? Is it boredom?
I just don't get it. And it's everywhere. Make it stop.
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Post by Dina on Sept 19, 2004 6:46:11 GMT -5
The whole Horatio/Calleigh movement baffles me. What is it about these two that makes people believe they're attracted to each other? Is it the fact that they never flirt? That he's in love with another woman? That she's never seen him as anything other than a mentor figure? That they rarely have any scenes together? Boredom? Is it boredom? I just don't get it. And it's everywhere. Make it stop. Same here. When I first looked at CSI:M fanfiction, I was really surprised that everyone seems to be H/C shipper. I didn't see that before and I still don't see it. Welcome to the board, by the way.
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Post by Paranoid Android on Sept 19, 2004 19:34:02 GMT -5
Thanks, Dina.
Different strokes, I guess. Personally, I see more potential and chemistry between Delko and Calleigh. He actually gives her that 'googly' look sometimes.
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Post by Dina on Sept 20, 2004 7:48:14 GMT -5
Personally, I see more potential and chemistry between Delko and Calleigh. He actually gives her that 'googly' look sometimes. Same here. ;D I love the two together.
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Post by the waitress on Sept 20, 2004 14:55:28 GMT -5
I can see Eric and Calleigh together, but I still think Horatio and Calleigh have better chemistry.
I can't explain why I feel this way. Just... there's a sense when they're in a scene together. And, omG, in "Lonely Road" when Hagen says "I'm just saying, that's a hell of a lonely road he's walking" and she says "Well that's why I'm walking it with him." It's just so adorable!
I just think they'd make a great couple.
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Post by Dina on Sept 20, 2004 16:43:41 GMT -5
And they constantly complete each other's sentences, that could be really useful in a relationship. *lol*
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Post by Dina on Sept 20, 2004 16:44:24 GMT -5
Oh, and welcome to the board to you too! ;D
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Post by Beckinsale on Sept 20, 2004 17:21:00 GMT -5
I guess you could say I was an Eric/Calleigh shipper. In reality, I just thought there was some cute potential there. That faded quickly. Emily and Adam have a nice, friendly chemistry together, but I just don’t see that pairing *ever* working. Eric’s more of a “guy on the town”--ladies man type guy while Calleigh’s more of an old soul, naive yet wise kind of person. That just doesn’t match romantically. Friendship-wise, sure. At this point, I honestly see them as brother and sister.
I didn’t start watching Miami looking for a ship or expecting to find one. I started watching and continue to watch because I enjoy the science and the show itself, but Horatio and Calleigh have completely captured my heart. And no, it isn’t boredom. I don’t really understand the logic in that.
It’s the chemistry they share on screen. It’s the way their characters complement one another. She’s light where he’s dark. She’s cheerful where he’s intense. Yet they share the same passion, intensity, and compassion for their work and the victims. They’re both deep developed characters with several layers that I think would mesh perfectly. (While a character like Yelina has had zero development. And even knowing that her husband was killed and she’s raising a son on her own, I care not at all for her. For me, there are zero reasons to like her and several to dislike her.)
And I think scenes like the one Kathleen mentioned prove Calleigh’s seen Horatio as more than a mentor or colleague. She cares for him on a personal level. That doesn’t confirm anything romantic, but it does open itself to the fact that she cares for him as a person which when combined with their chemistry and potential, make a prefect ship to me.
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Post by the waitress on Sept 20, 2004 17:57:16 GMT -5
Thank you for the welcome Yeah, that's how I see Eric and Calleigh too. Their chemistry seems more friendly. Thank you to Beckinsale who put into words what I couldn't seem to. I just catch so many moments when Horatio stares after Calleigh, and the little smiles she gives him. It's the little things that caused me to pair them. Yelina... I really don't care for. Besides, it's his brother's wife. That will never change. Horatio's a stand-up guy, so even if he wanted Yelina he wouldn't go for her because of Raymond. Besides, I just don't see it. Their "chemistry" seems forced, in my opinion.
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Horatio Addict
New Member
Rule Number One: NEVER Mess With Calleigh Duquesne.
Posts: 12
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Post by Horatio Addict on Sept 20, 2004 19:06:51 GMT -5
I Like Horatio/calleigh better then Horatio/Yelina
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Post by Paranoid Android on Sept 20, 2004 23:39:54 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree. I've seen every episode, and I never got the feeling that Horatio and Calleigh are anything more than mentor/student. There's absolutely no sexual tension, there's no attraction, there's no glances. There's nothing. You can't have a relationship where there's no sexuality. And these two have none. They would be as exciting as watching paint dry. Plus I'm sorry, but I find their age difference quite disturbing. I don't have a problem when there's a vast age difference, but the people are on the same level of maturity. But Calleigh is way too young and playful for a guy like Horatio, who is way too burdened. She's too cheery and he's too serious and not in a way that would complement each other. Add the fact that he regards her as a young student, and it's just wrong. Opposites only attract sometimes. For example, Speed/Calleigh makes more sense to me. But Horatio/Calleigh, they're just way too different. A man in his late 40s is not going to change for a woman so young. He's not gonna go out and get himself earings and get cheery with her and start going to clubs. I'm speaking from experience here. A guy like Horatio wants a woman he can protect, a woman who's very mature, a woman his age, a woman who is already grown, a woman he can go home to, who's gonna give him a calm life, who's gonna remind him his work isn't everything, who is detached from his work. That's not Calleigh. He already spends way too much time dealing with the injustices of this world. He doesn't need to go home to a woman who is going to remind him how crappy his day life can be.
It would never work out. Calleigh hates when people coddle her. And that's all Horatio does. His whole life revolves around 'saving' people, especially women. And she hates to be saved. She doesn't need it, either, and as a woman, I would be insulted if suddenly Horatio became her knight in shining armor. Secondly, I find it hard to believe Calleigh has ever seen Horatio as a 'man'. She sees him as a super hero, the guy who can do anything. But in my opinion she doesn't see him as a flawed human being. She sees him through rose colored glasses, she hero worships him, which means she barely knows him at all. She doesn't even know much about his brother. And if Horatio hasn't opened up to her about it, well, that says a lot about their relationship. We've never seen them hanging out, we've never seen them regarding each other as human beings, as man and woman, we've never seen them interract on the same level. He's always her superior. There's barely any friendship there. I can't see Horatio going, "Wow, Friday night, nothing to do. I really feel like hanging out with someone. Oh, yeah, Calleigh is #1 on that list." And that's disasterous for a relationship.
Yes, they have chemistry in the same way that two people who have known each other for a while have chemistry. But there's no potential in that chemistry. No romantic potential, anyway. For a couple to work, especially on television, there has to be sexuality. Tension. I'm not really a fan of Horatio/Yelina, but you have to admit there's plenty of tension and yearning between these two. Like them or not. The way he looks at her, he's never looked at Calleigh like that, and after Yelina, I'm not sure he will. Clearly Yelina is the love of his life, has been since before she married his brother. There's conflict there. And that's what makes a dramatic relationship work. Horatio and Calleigh don't have it.
No, sorry. Statement of loyalty at beast. Why would Hagen go out with a woman who is after her boss? If we were going through that route, then we could say that Speed, Delko, and Alexx are all in love with Horatio. His entire crew is blindly devoted to him. They would ALL jump off a bridge for Horatio. Doesn't mean there's anything romantic going on there. The way she delivered her line, there was no yearning in her voice, no double meaning. In fact, I didn't even give that line a second thought, until I went online and found out it was some sort of H/C holy grail. Give me a stronger argument, cause that line has nothing.
I don't see how Eric dating a lot is a problem. He's young. He's fucking hot. If would be weird if he DIDN'T date a lot. Plus I don't see anything unhealthy about it. He seems to care about the girls he sees. He's the 'I always call' kinda guy. If he used sex as a way to deal with repressed emotions, then yeah, that would be a big problem. But as it stands right now, I don't see any dysfunction in him dating a lot, and yeah, guys like that always settle down nicely and quietly. I know. My brother was exactly like him and you should see him now. Great marriage, couple of kids, and he's beyond happy. Just because a guy dates a lot doesn't mean he can't ever commit.
I think Calleigh and Eric have more in common than people think. Calleigh is not the wise, mature 'old' woman so many people see her as. During the first season, we learned she was well aquainted with that club she and Eric investigated, in which people threw paint at each other. In fact, she's been there 'a couple of times'. She also knows the night Miami scene very well, enough to know which clubs are the hottest. Her best friend Janet didn't seem like the 'bookworm' type, quite the opposite. Trust me, this girl isn't staying home on Friday nights watching the Discovery Channel. She's no Sara Sidle. She's constantly flirting with guys (during Grand Prix, she had some major flirting going on with one of the drivers, despite the fact that it was implied she was still dating Hagen). I'm not saying she's a player, I don't think Eric is a player either. But they both know how to have fun. They both have an active social life. And being the suburbian soccer mom hater that I am, couples like Eric/Calleigh are the ones I like the most. They're fun, sexual... these are the people who are still young at 98. They make each other laugh, they're already close friends, but they still have a lot of potential for drama. Perfect to me.
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Post by Beckinsale on Sept 21, 2004 1:22:32 GMT -5
I too have seen every episode. Several times each. Plenty of people see sexual tension between the characters and ZERO chemistry between Horatio and Yelina. Forced tension, certainly. But that doesn’t equal good viewing. I’ve always seen Horatio and Calleigh as being the ones on the same maturity level. A guy like Horatio NEEDS someone cheerful to brighten his life. It’s not as though she’s miss sunshine 24 hours a day. I do believe we’ve seen that she isn’t. I’ve never said Calleigh will sit home on a Friday evening, but “Innocent” proved that she isn’t a wild child. Eric is still immature. Calleigh isn’t. That doesn’t mean she’s an old lady. And honestly, I think you’re assuming H is some old man here. He isn’t. there was an episode is S1, I forget which one, in which there’s a mention of some adult playground and Horatio tells Eric to say hello to the owner or something of that nature. It was very suggestive of H’s outside personality. It was referenced in S2 as well. He can have fun too. So can Calleigh. I think Calleigh’s likely at a point where she wants something real, something permanent. Eric is definitely not there. The right woman, yes, could change that, but Calleigh isn’t the one. I don’t understand what you mean by that. Horatio hasn’t opened up to *anyone* about it. That means absolutely nothing. The show is only now starting to delve further into their personal lives. Anything could happen. And that’s exactly what I’ve seen time and time again between Horatio and Calleigh. I don’t think that’s clear at all. I do believe he loves her, but plenty of people believe they love someone and eventually let it go when they realize it was never meant to be. I never said there was anything unhealthy about it. And, yes, he is f**king hot. Yes, he does seem to care, but... Actually, no he isn’t the guy who always calls. It’s been made perfectly clear in several episodes that he’s the guy that often DOESN’T call. It’s been referenced several times by Horatio, Speedle, AND Calleigh. Even Eric himself. The producers have noted that S1 was about throwing people together and seeing what worked. I take that to mean they hadn’t decided 100% on anyone’s character. If you look at S2 you’ll see an entirely different Calleigh. Still fun. Still cheerful. Still sweet. But wiser, more mature, and layered. Yes, very true. So does Horatio.
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Post by Paranoid Android on Sept 21, 2004 9:10:52 GMT -5
Plenty of people see sexual tension between the characters and ZERO chemistry between Horatio and Yelina. Forced tension, certainly. But that doesn’t equal good viewing. Give me examples, though. Give me a scene where it's clear they're yearning for each other, where the writers are telling us, "These two are gonna end up together." I can't think of one. I think for a moment there, during the first season, the writers may have wanted to explore this relationship. But I think they quickly realized how bad it would be. For one, Grissom and Sara part deux. Second, the chemistry wasn't there to support it. If it had been, I believe the writers would've explored it regardless. It's not like their writing can be held up to high standards of excellence. The fact that they let it go says a lot. I'm not a fan of Horatio and Yelina. I don't care if they have chemistry or not. They could both jump off a bridge tomorrow and... actually, I'd be happy about it. But the drama is there. From a writer's point of view, this is an interesting relationship, regardless of how you and I feel about it. The plot is more interesting than, "Oh, look. Young woman falls for her boss... again." It's interesting. I don't like it, but I can admit it's interesting. I'm just being completely objective. If the show had good writers and the actors an out of this world chemistry, I may have been been a fan of this relationship. So if you're a writer and you could do that romance, or you could just write Grissom and Sara all over again, you're not gonna recycle old storylines. Of course, we all need someone to brighten our lives. But that's not necessarily tied to cheerfulness. My nieces and nephews aren't the most social people in the world. But I love them and therefore, they brighten my life. Horatio loves Yelina. Everytime she's around, we've seen him brighten up considerably, and Yelina isn't exactly a cup of sunshine. She doesn't need to be cheerful. She makes him happy just being with him. That's what love does. She also has a good sense of humor, laughs with him, so I think he's got that covered. Not that I think he needs it, either. You say he goes out and knows how to have fun. If he does, then it seems to me like he doesn't need Calleigh cheerfulness. He does fine on his own. Horatio is a cop, though. Cops definitely visit all the clubs, they have to investigate them. And he grew up in Miami. He probably knows every owner of every club in town. But I have a hard time believing he met them while dancing on tables. He knows how to have a good time, sure. But sooner or later he's gonna wind down and Calleigh will still be at an age where she'll want to have fun. That happened to my parents (my dad is 13 years older than my mom), which is one of the reasons why they're now divorced. I don't think we've gotten an indication of that. She's dating a man she clearly doesn't love. She's flirting around with everyone. She's still having fun. Of course, we'll all settle down as soon as we find the one, but I don't think she's at a point in her life where she has to have something real now. If she was, she would break up with Hagen. It's the same reason why I wasn't a fan of Sam and Ainsley on The West Wing. Sam and Ainsley were both lawyers, working for the White House. They got paid to argue with people. They often argued with each other. Imagine poor Sam, ending the day with a headache because his job is so exhausting. And then he goes home to Ainsley, who spent her whole time at work arguing with HIM. They weren't able to do anything else. Their lives revolved around their jobs, it was in their blood. Even when they weren't working, they were debating something or other. They didn't really have a friendship, I can't remember a time when they talked about a movie they saw or how high the price of milk is. And they often ended up frustrated. They never had an escape. Imagine having that both at work AND at home. God, I would kill myself. And then Sam also had Mallory, an elementary school teacher and his boss's daughter, who knew a lot about politics, enough to sit down with Sam and have a good debate. But she also offered him something else, a life outside of politics. He could have a bad day and then just go home to her and be able to put it out of his mind. Because she knew about politics he could talk to her about work, but because her life didn't revolve around politics, he was able to separate his job from his home life. Another example is Elliot Stabler and his wife Kathy on Law and Order: SVU. He sees horrible things at work, being a cop. But when he goes home to his wife, who is not a part of that horrible world, he finds his safe haven. So if it was up to me, I'd find another romance for Horatio. Someone outside of work. That would be my choice for him. Forget Yelina, or Calleigh, or Megan. He needs someone who wouldn't constantly remind him of his dead brother, or her dead husband, or what an awful day he had at work. It woudln't be a problem for me if Horatio and Calleigh fraternized outside of work, if they were close friends, because then they would already know how to separate that. But as it stands right now, their whole lives revolve around work. And two workaholics don't make a right. He doesn't need to tell everyone. He needs to tell Calleigh, who is the woman you guys think he should be with. Both Horatio and Yelina are hyper intuitive people. Horatio knows what's going on with everyone's personal lives. He's never made out to be dysfunctional. When he likes someone, he gives them his whole. Like David said in an interview, Horatio could be your worst enemy or your best friend, nothing in between. If he didn't really love Yelina, he's had plenty of opportunities to let her go. Horatio is not a 16 year old. He's a man who knows what he wants. Teenagers mistake love for something else. Perfectly functional people in their late forties don't. Divorced people don't. And he's been in love with her for God knows how long. You don't 'think' you love a person for 10+ years. And the writers haven't given us any indication that there's nothing there but pure, unconditional love. If the writers made it clear that he loves her because, I don't know, he promised Raymond he would marry her, then I'd give you that. But he was in love with her before Raymond, in love with her through Raymond, in love with her after Raymond. There's no foolishness there. Horatio doesn't bullnuts. It's the real thing. Exaggerated figure of speech. What I mean is Eric is not the guy who gets off breaking hearts. He's not a calloused bastard. He loves people, he loves helping people. He has a great soul. He cares about his friends. That doesn't mean he's perfect, far from it. But if there was something morally or socially wrong with him, I wouldn't want him near Calleigh. People often refer to Eric as immature and I really don't think he is. I don't think that's the right word to describe him. I think Eric is innocent. And that's very common when people grow up in nice, stable, homes and had happy childhoods. There's not an ounce of dysfunctionality in his body. He didn't grow up with an alcoholic father who beat him up. He didn't grow up with a distant mother. His parents had a loving marriage; even as an adult his family is very close. That makes him a bit naive. You find it hard to believe bad things can happen in the world. That's why for him, the job isn't enough. He goes out of his way to make things right. But he can't make everything right, he's not a super hero. And I bet that frustrates him a lot. Because his childhood was so happy, he probably has a hard time swallowing the things he sees at work. Unlike Calleigh, he never had a reason to toughen up and learn how to deal with these horrible things that happen. And as a grown man, it's hard for him to accept. That frustration can easily be mistaken for immaturity. I'd call him immature if he went around giving people wedgies, wet willies, laughing at the word 'thingy'. But Eric gets serious, he's responsible enough for Horatio to have hired him, he uses his free time to help people who need help. People don't often give him the credit he deserves, my poor, magnificent hunk of man meat. Yeah, I believe I just lost three fingers typing all this. If you excuse me, I have to go bury myself in ice.
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Post by greyorhids on Sept 21, 2004 20:35:49 GMT -5
Hey there...I am normally quite a lurker, but I felt compelled to defend H/C in this thread because it's clear that there are some points that for whatever reason, just aren't being brought up.
Paranoid Android: I hope that I can be direct without offending you, but I do have a few problems with your posts.
Though I myself have shipped popular and unpopular ships combined, one thing that has never changed for any couple is the chemisrty. And the great thing about chemistry is that it's the underlying stuff that really pulls you in and makes you ship whoever strikes your fancy.
That being said, who am I to tell you who has chemistry? Clearly, the observer is the one who picks up or ignores a couples chemistry, and the great thing about having fanfiction ect. is that you and I can watch the same show, and walk away from it with new and different idea's that can be put to creative use.
I think it's unfair that you dissmiss chemistry between H/C simply because you "don't get it". I think there are far more outlandish couples that one could ship, and I really don't see them as an unlikely pairing in the slightest.
Although the writers are clearly H/Y biased, their chemisty is dry, and comes across as forced and unatural. Although they might be one possiblily (even if I personally can't agree), they aren't the only possiblilty, and if for no other reason then to appreciate other people's exploration of the show, you should be able to at least respect the ideas and reasons of the people who support even the most unlikely of pairings
I also find it interesting that you mention a lack of proof, or ask for stronger arguments...but a stronger argument to what? If I feel that H/C makes sense, what more proof do you need? It might not float your boat, but in all honesty, they are a likely pairing, even if it's not the direction you think the show is going.
Basically, I just thought I would let you know that although there is nothing wrong with not supporting a pairing, there is no reason to be so unjustly dead set against it.
I hope that if nothing else, this post has been a little reminder of the fact that there are people that feel strongly about the pairing they ship, and that goes for every pairing, in every fandom. I am willing to offer 'proof' or further explaination if something I said wasn't clear, and I hope that this post didn't come across as defensive...just wanted to throw my two cents in here.
<3
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Post by Paranoid Android on Sept 22, 2004 20:40:33 GMT -5
No, I never said, "My way or no other way." I ask for proof because I wanna know what you guys see in it. Literally and factual. I wanna get your point of view. I wanna see what you guys see. Beckinsale gave me some examples, I gave a rebutal, she gave one back... it's a game. I continue because in my experience, H/C shippers are usually very young, immature, and stubborn. Trying to debate with them is like trying to potty train a 2 year old. So this is a nice pace. I love to debate; I always wanted to be a lawyer. Debating can get heated but it's not personal. It's a matter of swapping ideas. I'm just disagreeing with you. That doesn't mean I'm not listening to you or understanding what you're saying - I'm doing all three at the same time. (tm sorkin)
I agree that chemistry is not the eye of the beholder. It's either there, or it's not, but people can never really be totally objective. I'm the biggest anti-Grissom/Sara person there is. Hate them. But I can admit that as people, they connect. They're friends, they've known each other for a while. Even though I hate it, I admit it makes sense. I can see why people like them.
The chemistry I see between Horatio and Calleigh is completely non-sexual. I said in my post I do see chemistry between them, just not romantic chemistry. That's why I'm asking for examples cause maybe I've missed something. That's why this world has gone to hell, cause people don't try to understand each other anymore.
Nobody's getting nasty, nobody's calling names. We're simply debating. If I knew Beckinsale personally, I'd have taken her for a beer a long time ago. It's the people who are hypocritical that I have no respect for.
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